| Posted by Anonymous at 2009-11-20 19:07:30 | Why not Mbeki ruled with Iron fist with his cronies eg ex Minister Beetroot we knew all of the denial.
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| Posted by Marcy at 2009-11-20 19:03:29 | If only they listened to Mbeki, we could have saved more lives!!!! We take schedule 3 drugs with meals but give the population ARV's with no food.
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| Posted by Quill at 2009-11-20 17:45:35 | A Harvard Medical School study showed that over 300 000 South Africans died of AIDS as a direct result of Mbeki and co not making ARVs available when they first could have.
Aren't we responsible for our actions under the law?
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More comments...
| Posted by Aubrey at 2009-11-20 16:48:27 | If Mr Mbeki told the people that HIV does not cause Aids and that people do not need to use condoms, then I support that he must be charged, but I don't remember him saying that, please correct me if I am wrong.
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| Posted by Cynical Scientist at 2009-11-20 16:39:05 | A brief squizz through the comments have left me quite cold. The ammount of ignorance is scary. I recall when I used to work with Life Line, i used to recieve some calls with very scary beliefs about HIV/AIDS. These don't seem to have moved on very much. And for those saying that TB never said that HIV does not cause AIDs are mistaken, there is audio/video evidence of his gaff. We scientists tend to keep a close watch on these sort of things because they will come round to affect our work.
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| Posted by Nawaal at 2009-11-20 16:34:18 | The poor man spoke like the ignorant idiot he is. lets forgive him and move on.
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| Posted by Anonymous at 2009-11-20 16:34:14 | Well, if they want to charge him, the what of the then Minister of Health - she propogated all manner of "wisdom" regarding HIV and AIDs!
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| Posted by Ras Dandala at 2009-11-20 16:33:56 | Had i were Pres. Zuma i would begin to shiver bcos it means i get out! then i must be sent to the guillotine. Plus im IN but nothing has been done with Rob. My colleague Kgalema Motlantle believes we better leave the man alone as he will sooner face the wrath of God considering that he does not have many years on his side.
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| Posted by Commander at 2009-11-20 16:26:55 | If we think TM needs to be charged what about the former "Apartheid Leaders"
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| Posted by Anonymous at 2009-11-20 15:56:10 | TM has never said HIV does not cause AIDS. Stupid people dont understand him.
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| Posted by Anonymous at 2009-11-20 15:54:23 | Charge him for what your brothers n sisters did to themselves? Teach them how to play...
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| Posted by Tmano at 2009-11-20 15:52:21 | ALL those that say we must not hold the previous government accountable they must ALL GO TO SHELL and remove THE S i fully support ACTIVIST1 and NPC and as for Helgal you should really go to hell gal!!!!! we are talking about people's life here, people have lost their loved one's some a father, a brother a sister a mother and so on, and all you say you blame it on the individuals, if the laws and policies of this country are useless then lets blame the President and his cabinet. The Buck Stop With them!!!!!!
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| Posted by Tmano at 2009-11-20 15:46:10 | ALL those that say we must not hold the previous government accountable they must ALL GO TO SHELL and remove THE S i fully support ACTIVIST1 and NPC and as for Helgal you should really go to hell gal!!!!! we are talking about people's life here, people have lost their loved one's some a father, a brother a sister a mother and so on, and all you say you blame it on the individuals, if the laws and policies of this country are useless then lets blame the President and his cabinet. The Buck Stop With them!!!!!!
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| Posted by Tyrik at 2009-11-20 15:42:57 | @Zander. Read my post properly, before making a senseless statement. Did i mention on the gay community???
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| Posted by Boss T at 2009-11-20 15:36:19 | If Mbeki is charged with genocide, then someone must be charged for this Senseless killings of innocent people(shoot to kill).I think is only normal to be prudent when dealing with issues like this as a leader and i think Mbeki was trying an alternative means to dealing with AIDS.
My biggest concern now is whether to buy my child a toy gun for Christmas ,he might get shot for pointing it to the wrong people.
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| Posted by EB at 2009-11-20 15:30:03 | Its a much more complex issue why so many people in SA especially woman are infected.They firstly lack the confidence, assertiveness and power to negotiate safe sex practice with their parners. This is a cultural phenomenon, due to many things, such as Aparthed, Woman being economicaly disenfranchised, dependent on their partner, uneducated etc. Also, many of the men have to work in the mines, far from their wives in the rural areas. They have to go to earn a living digging for Gold that YOU wear on your neck, yet they dont share the value of. When they return to their wives in the remote areas of SA after months away, they invariably infect them. HIV is a very complex issue, and all of you out there who sit back in your posh homes, surrounded my high electric fences, and point fingetrs and blamce people for getting infected, should be ashemed of yourself!!
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| Posted by NPC at 2009-11-20 15:27:20 | all the support for the most useless president Africa has ever had since ape man, you need to remember a Government is led by a president who has taken oath and who has sworn to protect all his people. Mbeki the incompetent had full responsibility to declare a state of emergency against AIDS ,he never did it simple as that. and by his incompetence he was responsible for peoples deaths. more than the NP government ever contemplated. so please lets stop making excuses for the idiot, the buck stops at the top.. you make idiotic decisions, live in denial, kill people because of your ignorance at the top then you face the music. he and manto are both responsible and they MUST be charged and hung at the hague, no cost to SA. its an international court. what mbeki has done is no different to hitler, to mugabe, to Taylor, to Idi amin and eastern eurpoean atrocities, Burundi and ruwanda.. they are all getting the justice served so we need mbeki. manto and Mugabe up at the Hague soonest ...arrest them. strip them of any rights and treat them like they treated the 300,000 whom they killed intentionally.
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| Posted by Activist1 at 2009-11-20 15:05:52 | Helga; As the head of state you have to have machanisms in place or have your presidencial advisory commity , if you noticed i actually blamed the whole cabinet not him alone should be blamed, if you look at his cabinet i.e the previous minister of health she acted as if she knew nothing when it comes to the Medical part of the Virus and thus why she recommended that people should use vegitables to combat the HIvirus. we need educated people to form part of the cabinet and i must say however that also Mandela did very little when it comes to issues of HIV it is only now that he came out big and hence the 46664 movement, we need as South Africans to have a willing and dedicated parliamentarians and for you record i am not a member of ANC!!!!!!!!!
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| Posted by Winstein at 2009-11-20 14:57:30 | Mbeki was only doing wat he was supposed to do as the leader of this country. He was not trusting the pharmaceutical industries and neither do I, It becoming a general knowledge that ppl cook up diseases and infect them to a certain group in order to sell their products which will be then needed to cure the victims. Other than that dispensing of the expensive ARVs do not bring a remedy to the scourge of HIV. It is sad that there YCL see the whole thing as opportunity for them to score political points. Im sure they will also call for Zuma's head very sooner for rampant killing of innocent people by the SAPS.
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| Posted by Helga at 2009-11-20 14:47:16 | Activist1 if Mbeki believes or think that HIV does not cause AIDS that is his mind or believe or knowledge, he alone does not take decisions and implement them. It is the responsibility of Health Minister, Cabinet and Advisors to make sure that Mbeki says what is right, based of facts and can be proven. He did not fail the nation, your ANC failed the nation and still fails the nation if you want to blame someone.
There are better things that Mbeki also did and no one is praising him for them instead you sit and critisize when not necessary. Mbeki improved and grew SA economy, if he would not have done so, most possibly the country could not afford to distribute free ARVs.
How did the statement HIV does not cause AIDS kill someone?
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| Posted by Siseko at 2009-11-20 14:46:37 | I do not think that he should be charged. Otherwise we might charge people for not eradicating the shacks that are all over our country. Leave Thabo Mbeki alone. He is one of our own. siseko
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| Posted by Jd at 2009-11-20 14:44:15 | We have a guy who is pardoned from prison because he was dying to play golf..(corruption in a nutshell) and NO One is saying anything, its ok bcause its not Mbeki who set the guy free. We have a One nite shack sleeping Minister, who demolished houses the next day, still NO One is saying anything, not talking abt Bling Bling Cars driven by Ministers( hey Watch the budget), I think I need a headache pill from the anti Mbeki society, there are plenty of things to do for the betterment of SA and we are busy focusing on dead issues.
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| Posted by biffo at 2009-11-20 14:40:36 | Charge the then minister of Beetroot, pototoes and whiskey, she is to blame NOT Thabo!
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| Posted by Peter Scheepers at 2009-11-20 14:33:24 | How can people sleep around without any protection and not knowing their HIV status and then expect someone else to be responsible for their sexual indiscretions. Life is all about choices and consequences
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| Posted by boni at 2009-11-20 14:20:20 | if anyone has to be charged is the ANC. it was an ANC policy championed by their leader. if they had issues with it, why didnt they ask Mbeki to change the stance. they kept quiet. they must leave the man alone now, he is minding his business.
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| Posted by S.I.V. at 2009-11-20 14:18:55 | FORGET THE PAST,FOCUS ON THE FUTURE. DON'T WASTE ANY MORE OF THE TAXPAYERS MONEY.
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| Posted by etienne at 2009-11-20 14:10:55 | Just the very fact that we're actually discussing this makes me cringe! It sounds like another vendetta against Mbeki by those peolple who still see him as a threat and would not stop until he's destroyed comp[letely!
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| Posted by @MML at 2009-11-20 14:09:06 | Then I am a miracle as I have shaken hands with many HIV+ people and I still do not have HIV. Doctors and nurses wear gloves as they could come in contact with blood which could then infect them. I get exactly what Matt B is trying to say, that normal social contact will not give you HIV, but you are so blinded by political rhetoric and blind devotion to protecting a failed political figure that you cannot even use your common sense and understand what he is trying to say.
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| Posted by Sidney at 2009-11-20 13:57:36 | What genocide?Joseph Goebbels was the greatest nazi propagandist,so is Zuma Adnimistration.People must guard against the sheep mentality.
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| Posted by DVL at 2009-11-20 13:43:46 | Although he had said many a stupid thing and denied aids exist he cannot be charged with people's immorality and plain "origheid" but then again sex gets pushed down our throats these days.... I feel sorry for people who contracted it due to lying partners or blood transfusions and they should receive treatment. If you got it through sleeping around deal with it don't blame someone else.
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| Posted by Harriet at 2009-11-20 13:35:57 | There's absolutely no doubt that Mbeki refused to heed the advice of the medical community on this. He should take accountability for his decisions, but since this is never an option in South Africa, he will be left alone to rake in his state pension and enjoy his retirement far, far away from the real world.
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| Posted by lovers at 2009-11-20 13:34:29 | Why charge Mbeki alone, what about his minister of health and the entire cabinet? These people who are making noise about charging Mbeki were quiet, only Desmond Tutu questioned Mbeki's stance. The rest of the people were all quiet.
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| Posted by Anonymous at 2009-11-20 13:24:23 | From 1994, triple therapy was available and was used in the US to stem the tide of Aids mortality and MCT. this was during the time of our hallowed and beloved President Madiba. His finance ministers, Derek keys and Liebenberg gave no outlay for prevention and no national plan was fashioned in those days. In 1996 Brazil authorised ARV's free to its population. Western cape has always had an ARV programme and the death rate has not gone down. Perhaps the blame for needless deaths should be laid at a different door.
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| Posted by Anonymous at 2009-11-20 13:08:44 | Charge him for people's own choices and irresposibilities...come on guys really!
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| Posted by Activist1 at 2009-11-20 13:07:35 | My personal views are that our former Pres,,, must be held liable for the deaths of fellow South Africans, i mean we (SA) started rolling out Anti HIV Med only in 2004 and compared to other countries we are the worse of all we are leading in terms of infections in this country and because he (MR Mbeki) AND HIS CABINET DELAYED the whole issue of HIV and went on to say that the HIVirus does not cause AIDS, who can say that in his sound mind, he failed a lot of South Africans and perhaps if the HIV/AIDS policy of the country was up to standard maybe we were going to be able to save peoples lives he delayed the whole process and therefore he should be accauntable as an exhead of state.
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| Posted by Get Real at 2009-11-20 13:04:36 | I'm certainly no fan of Mbeki, but this stretches the limits of credulity. What about the individual responsibility of those who are carriers of HIV? If someone knowingly passes on HIV then they should be charged. Those who have unprotected sex and pass on HIV are culpable. It is high time for individuals to take responsibility for their actions and quit blaming the government for their own failures. Government is not God and can't fix all that ails our land.
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| Posted by andrew p at 2009-11-20 13:02:16 | To put it politely, people "sexed" "mated" "fornicated" themselves to death. The proposal as whether Thabo or Manto or anyone else being tried for genocide is ridiculous and would more than like be thrown out of court on the first day . If anybody should be tried for genocide it should perhaps, be the American government, rumour has it they donated blankets infected with small pox to the Native Americans, that is after they had butchered their women and children, shot out their food supply and chased them off their land. It's good job their no men on the moon you can just imagine how they would be treated by these so called world police!
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| Posted by Lee at 2009-11-20 12:58:43 | I don't think Mbeki should be charged however I think that he disappointed a lot of people by not supporting the AIDS factor as the president of the country, it sounded like it was impossible to him for people to contract this disease, well work up SA no matter who you are it's out there and yes it's contracted in different ways but that does not mean that people should be ignorant about it, the best we can do is to live right and do the right things for us that are affected and infected by this epidemic because no matter which way you may look at it we are all going to die one way all the other.
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| Posted by Joseph Melodi at 2009-11-20 12:51:18 | If one does not have anthing to do or say in the Media fraternity ,the last thing to do is to cause discomfort to the highly respected stateman,who took the reigns from Mr Mandela by continuing to shape SA to what it is today.
Who says Mr Mbeki in his representative capacity as head of the democratic Republic of SA had an intention to destroy a particular racial group ?
Let us not be oblivious of the wonderful work done by him as a president.
Why should he be charged with genocide for his opinion on HIV/AIDS pandemic. Leave the man alone.
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| Posted by jorene at 2009-11-20 12:48:38 | What rubbish, Mr Thabo Mbeki did not start Aids or HIV. He did not kill anyone. And remember he took orders from the ANC just like Mandela in his day and Zuma today. Leave Mr Thabo Mbeki alone he has done a lot to uplift this country which is now being rolled into the rubbish heap by the new ANC. Shame all his hard work for nothing.
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| Posted by Blacklikeme at 2009-11-20 12:46:43 | If you want to charge someone, charge Manto. As a qualified medical Doctor, she should have known better. While you are still at it how about charging Zuma as well. Was he not in charge (excuse the pun) of some AIDS committe at the time?
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| Posted by Dukie743 at 2009-11-20 12:43:30 | It is the ANC who should be taking the full collective resaponsibility for the deaths of thousands due to its policy on AIDS. This will be reflected in the future history of SA.. If Mbeki's AIDS policy was wrong
why did the ANC not recall him earlier? He should however be brought to court for the allegation that he took kickbacks during the arms deal to the tune of R30 miilion rands. It is 2 years ago that a newspaper made the allegation that Mbeki had taken a kickback of R30 million and had given R2 million of it to Zuma and R28 million to the ANC. This was sheer defamation by the Sunday newspaper concerned. But Mbeki, Zuma or the ANC have ever brought that newspaper to civil court for defamation. Something that the alert Zuma, as Shapiro knows, is not terribly shy to do. The trouble in South Africa is that we are so numb with the wholesale corruption by ANC politicians, that we have given up and we keep calling for the slate to be wiped clean. Pathetic.
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| Posted by Denis Esau from Boksburg at 2009-11-20 12:37:28 | I agree with Manamela. Mbeki must face the music. He intentionally killed millions of South Africans. We know that if the pharmaceutical companies had offered kickbacks, Mbeki would have easily called for an immediate roll-out of ARVS's.
We would enjoy seeing Mbeki in Bock, at the Hague for his crimes against humanity. Thabo Mbeki is the worst of them all. Even Mugabe is better.
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| Posted by Reggie at 2009-11-20 12:28:25 | You people are stupi*. Why will you want to arrest innocent man, why do you scratch were it does not itch.
If you consider arresting Mbeki, you should also take his advisors and the people that he was reporting to with.
We have fraud everywhere in the government, from incorrect use of state funds and assets, tender irregularities, underperformance. Shouldn't you be concentrating on bringing the perpetrators to book instead on focusing on Mbeki?
Does Zuma camp hate Mbeki so much that they even look for petty issues just to settle the score? You people are pathetic big time.
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| Posted by Dan at 2009-11-20 12:17:57 | Denis Esau from Boksburg: did Mbeki advice people to be ignorant, is he a party to people being infected by HIV/AIDS? Maybe should explain what do you mean he killed people.
Whether ARVs were issued on time or not, those people were going to die eventually. Not because of HIV/AIDS because of ARVs to start with - some people ARV do not treat them well esp. when they start taking the treatment, secondly, of other diseases. HIV/AIDS infected people are more likely to die from TB, flu, pneumonia.
Next time you and your buddies before you look for a scapegoat read first okay...
His take on the matter is just like everyone of you busy commenting here except that Mbeki has to remember that he has to think for everyone of you and he also has a bunch of incompetent ministers.
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| Posted by Jd at 2009-11-20 12:14:29 | Hold your horses!!! or for that matter Hold your cats!!! Has Thabo Mbeki been invited into pp's houses before making love and ask them if they are aware of Aid or HIV? Guys pls, was it his mandate as President? and does it apply to Zuma? did it apply to Mandela? PP, whether he acknowledged or not the fact is pp are using their heads and assets to engage in sexual activities.
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| Posted by Concern at 2009-11-20 11:59:35 | You cannot charge one person for the other's misfortune.
People are aware of HIV and how you get the virus, we have the campaigns on radios, billboards and tv. If people choose to be irresponsible it is their choice. I mean even the intellectuals ignore the warnings and do not even change their behaviour.
Mbeki did what he believed in with what was given to him. If Zuma and other presidents to come fails to eradicate or minimise poverty or employment, will you charge with genocide too?
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| Posted by patrick at 2009-11-20 11:51:55 | Dear SheilaM
You self righteous a***hole, you do not only contract HIV through sexual contact.
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| Posted by FRANK HARTRY at 2009-11-20 11:42:16 | I see that Petula T, disguised as Peter T, is in denial once again. It has not been proven in court that there was a conspiracy agaimst Zuma. McCarthy and his alleged co- conspritators have not been brought to trial for their alleged crimes of conspiracy and will not be because it may prove the allegation to be false. Very clever. Only the ANC stalwart Willie Hofmeyre has ever heard the so called consporacy tapes and even though the ZUMA saga cost us taxpayers nearly R100 million, we are not allowed to hear the tapes in order to judge for ourselves. Petula T should perhaps
stop trying to defend the indefensible and catcheawakeup. He/she is irritating everyone these days.
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| Posted by ange at 2009-11-20 11:40:51 | Thabo Mbeki killed no-one and he was a very good president. Don't blame him if you can't keep your fly zipped up.
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| Posted by nnetefeela at 2009-11-20 11:36:57 | Let us not focus on the past and focus on the challenge ahead of us namely:
1. How do we create jobs for our people
2. How do we retain our professionals in the country
3. Is the credit blacklisting really neccesary in tough times like these when 100's of people loose they jobs and their credit records are damaged which will have a negative impact for years to come
4.Zuma is the president and has recently approve an annual salary increase to MPL whilst our economic is growing negatively WHY?
5. Heavy panelties will be emposed on innocent tax payers by SARS for late submissions but no panelties are applied to people misusing our tax money in Gov.
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| Posted by Anonymous at 2009-11-20 11:34:57 | How can anyone call it genocide? Genocide is when when people who would otherwise have lived a normal lifespan are killed. People with AIDS are dying anyway and all the ARVs would have done is prolong their lives. They would still have died anyway. It may be something immoral but it cannot be genocide.
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| Posted by SheilaM at 2009-11-20 11:31:19 | Denis Esau 11:11- Mbeki has not killed any one. Better to avoid infection than hope that medicine will work...... no one is blame except the person that pulls the pants down for every Jum, Jack, Mary and the works...
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| Posted by Worried citizen at 2009-11-20 11:17:51 | Whoever came up with this story is obviously adviced by the humorable Malema. And is slowly getting to talk & think like him.
Stop pointing fingers & start doing what the nation voted U for & what the taxpayers R paying U for. Before we know it, 5 years will be over & there will be nothing concrete pointed as progress from your government.
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| Posted by Denis Esau from Boksburg at 2009-11-20 11:11:25 | I agree with Manamela. Mbeki must face the music. He intentionally killed millions of South Africans. We know that if the pharmaceutical companies had offered kickbacks, Mbeki would have easily called for an immediate roll-out of ARVS's. We would enjoy seeing Mbeki in Bock, at the Hague for his crimes against humanity. Thabo Mbeki is the worst of them all. Even Mugabe is better.
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| Posted by nnetefeela at 2009-11-20 11:11:17 | Thabo Mbeki when had advisors to his team and was just fullfiling ANC mandate at the time. It strange how certain group of so-called politicians have acute memories when it comes to what Thabo Mbeki and his team has achieved for South Africa.We wont be hosting the 2010 world cup if it was not for Mbeki's leadership as a president.The Zuma camp must stop trying to gain points at the expense of Thabo Mbeki. Thabo Mbeki never blamed the apartheid for driving the SA economic into positive territory so we tired of excusses from Zuma people are loosing jobs and are getting black listed in large numbers daily due to the financial meltdown,what is Zuma doing about it>
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| Posted by Msindisi C.Nkwenkwezi at 2009-11-20 11:05:17 | i dont think so at all
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| Posted by Anonymous at 2009-11-20 11:04:03 | Who ever thought of such a stupid thing. Leave the poor man alone now.
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| Posted by msenti at 2009-11-20 10:58:56 | @ I take full responsibility for my status : Sometimes we recieve God's blessings before we even pray or believe we can recieve them ( e.g. I woke up, got to work safely without any accidents even though i didnt pray for any of that). There are people without confidence and acceptence but you do - you may think its luck, good genes, education or even counseling. I say its grace, i say its a blessing designed especialy for you in order to assist you in your time of need. I just hope you will at least acknowledge that. Any way I hope you wont be offended by my words - besides, i prefer this type of conversation compared to the debates currently held on this poll - like the group arguing over the meaning of the word " contagious" - thats pretty funny, dont you think?
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| Posted by Chaka at 2009-11-20 10:57:48 | If you put your hand in the flame you know for a fact you going to get burnt. If you sleep around without protection chances are you going to contract HIV. So people must grow up and stop shifting the blame for their ignorance especialy us blacks. as its killing us the most.
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| Posted by Anonymous at 2009-11-20 10:54:10 | Mbeki is not an issue here, the problem is about people who didn't care enough about themselves(who still do by the way). ppl always know that when you r engaged in an unsafe sex then there;'s AIDS. it's unfortunate to the kids who were infected @ birth and the married men/ women who were infected by their spouses' infidelities & those women who were raped by infected sexpets.
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| Posted by Ants at 2009-11-20 10:45:08 | What about charging those who know they have aids but continue to spread the epidemic for MURDER !
Why don't they find a solution rather than a scapegoat. They lack backbone and leadership.
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| Posted by Peter T at 2009-11-20 10:30:26 | @Dukie743 or Petula T, whoever you are, remove your blinkers bcos they not doing you any favour. Its better to shut up and let people assume you stupid, instead of opening your mouth and prove it (same goes for Malema & Manamela). Everyone know Zuma's case was motivated by his enemies within the ANC, NPA etc who thought he wasnt fit to be the President of the country. On the 12th Sept 2008, Judge Nicholson attained to that and it was proven by the taped conversation between Ngcuka and McCarthy. What more evidence do you want to believe he was a victim of a political plot? Though I reject a call to prosecute Mbeki, I think he should apologise to the nation for his role in all of this and many wrong decisions he made aka Eskom debacle
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| Posted by BHK at 2009-11-20 10:26:20 | What a ridiculous discussion. There was no willful intent and therefore he can not be charged for Genocide. If stupidity was a crime then the likes of Zuma (shower) and Julias Malema (foot in mouth decease) should be in jail ages ago
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| Posted by Anonymous at 2009-11-20 10:23:21 | No. He made his mistakes like everybody but at the end of the day I am responsible for my actions and the consequences thereof. We are killing ourselves. We cant blame him for that.A fterall, that was the ANC policy. The ANC must be blamed as well.
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| Posted by Yrne at 2009-11-20 10:23:20 | ANON @ 10:11 47 ........you have no idea what you talking about!!!! IF ONLY the apartheid regime killed 300 000 people a year during their reign then trust me there wouldnt be a singel black person left in this country today!!!!!! Your stats is pathetic!!!!!! 50 years times 300 000 =15 million!!!!!!
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| Posted by LL at 2009-11-20 10:20:47 | By charging one individual for counscious decisions made by others, we are removing self-responsibility. NPC, John Woods & FRANK HARTRY - Can criminals blame poverty and Apartheid policies which disadvantaged them for their behaviour? Or does it only apply when ANC leaders are involved? They are NO saints believe me and I despise some of them especially the "bling" (Merc & BMW) brigade but to blame them for other people's reckless behaviour cannot be right. Next time we are going to blame for many "fatherless" kids we have because they did not have a policy prohibiting women from having multiple partners or dating married men or a policy forcing men to disclose their marital status before chasing young girls in office. Pre-1994, there was no policy or advanced knowledge we have today, despite the disease surfacing in the lat 70s to early 80s. My captcha is "rouge".
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| Posted by Zander at 2009-11-20 10:18:38 | @LL ............AIDS is oh-so a HETEROSEXUAL problem!!!!! If you and your Tyrik think aids comes from gay people then I CAN surely say that theres many str8's having sex with gay people then ---as your narrow mind suggest it comes and spreads from gay folks!!!!! Gay people are the ONLY group of sexually active people who had a decline ---DECLINE- in aids related cases!!!! Why dont you and others just try to WRECK your brains and answer the poll question and NOT give us EDUCATED people a lecture on all the rubbish you talk about!!!! WHAT THE HECK HAS foreign affairs got to do with T-bone Mbheki and his stupid stance on AIDS!!!!! GET A LIFE ASS###e!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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| Posted by msenti at 2009-11-20 10:16:53 | YCL just want to make headlines and they chose this weak, ridiculous and childish topic to make. Thabo Mbeki tried for genocide? come on man - where do they get these ideas?
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| Posted by Anonymous at 2009-11-20 10:11:47 | @Karen
How so, Sweetie?
Did Manto Msimang inject people with HIV, or did they get HIV because of her views? I suppose if you never lost anyone under apartheid, you will be too eager to minimise its damage on people.
You people make me sick
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| Posted by Matt B at 2009-11-20 10:10:17 | To everyone who questioned my poll, contagious i meant (like catching a cold) sorry that i maybe used that word, but the point i was getting at was that you cant just catch the virus- it has to be transmitted. and as such TM couldnt be found guilty of all of those cases- Sorry if you got my point wrong
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| Posted by Anonymous at 2009-11-20 10:08:48 | @Jabulani
Perhaps you need to have an HIV test and them inform your family of the results and then worry about yourself and your family
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| Posted by LL at 2009-11-20 10:06:08 | Tyrik - I see you hit a raw nerve, hence the attack from our gay community on IOL. Back to the topic, I am not sure if we have any legal standing to charge Mbeki with genocide, unless we want to remove self-responsibility. Mbeki's mistake was to follow a stupid policy - and policies fail all the time if not well thought-out or implemented. Crime, educate, employment, foreign affairs etc are some of the failed policies which, if this logic is followed, will attract casualties.
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| Posted by I take full responsibility for my status at 2009-11-20 10:05:22 | @msenti
I do appreciate your prayers, though I doubt that they have anything to do with my acknowledging my situation. There are many kids that are afflicted and all they want is a normal life, and cannot imagine that if anyone had the power to do anything would wait for them to pray and ask.
As you can gather, I am past believing in Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy or other superheros. I believe that my actions in most cases have consequences in my life, rather than belief and faith
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| Posted by D at 2009-11-20 10:01:19 | what nonsense!
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| Posted by Ants at 2009-11-20 10:00:42 | If one charges Mbeki it would be making him a scape goat for all those consenting "adults" who have multiple sexual relationships and have more than one wife or girlfriend.
Then what about that "minister" who demanded the merging of universities and forced the Outcome Based Education on our children. Why don't they charge him for stuffing the education system up. Now we are left with matriculates who can't tell how many continents there are in the world where in fact doesn't know what a continent is!!!
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| Posted by Murri at 2009-11-20 09:58:47 | If we are going to charge him , we should charge the other south africans that hurt and burnt the foreigners alive, again we South Africans want to blame someone else. We can't even stand up for the people in Zimbabwe, but thats ok for Mugabe to kill his people. lets not be hypocrites. Thabo has done alot for the coountry when he was the president and you shouldn't be throwing him to the wolves.
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| Posted by get a life at 2009-11-20 09:52:36 | Young Communist League obsessed with Mbeki. I think they are bored and need a new agenda. get a life guys.
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| Posted by MML at 2009-11-20 09:47:57 | @ MML at 2009-11-20 09:42:30 EISH, that's misleading. I rest my case, cant fight the idiots! CONTAGIOUS = ANYTHING AND ANY WAYS TRANSMITTING. WHY do the nurses and doctors wear gloves? Guess why! To the topic MBEKI SHOULD NOT BE CHARGED, he is not alone...
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| Posted by @ MML at 2009-11-20 09:42:30 | CONTAGIOUS - adjective 1. capable of being transmitted by bodily contact with an infected person or object: contagious diseases. Normal bodily contact, such as shaking hands etc, will not pass on HIV/AIDS.
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| Posted by mancedo at 2009-11-20 09:42:09 | Never! He cant be charged.!!..HE IS ONE OF THE WISEST & GREATEST STATESMAN that Africa ever had. He is a celebration & success story to cunning & sober people even around the World... Thus Why Charge Him????????
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| Posted by Malcolm at 2009-11-20 09:38:34 | In lieu of the fact that decisions are taken as a collAlthough there may alwaysective, they should either charge the whole Mbekhi Administration as one and not just the head of the administration.Although there are always decenting voices, the majotity decision is taken as the decision of the whole Cabinet to give it enforcement power.
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| Posted by Justice at 2009-11-20 09:33:03 | One day God will judge you Mr. Mandela (for you were the president once and did nothing but only meekly spoke up after leaving office and that too in very hush tones), Mr. Mbeki (for you were president and denied HIV even existed even after one of your dear spokesman died of it), Mr. Zuma (for you were deputy president), Dr. Tshabalala-Msimang (for you were too drunk to do your duty) and the entire government who were supposed to care for the fellow human beings but denied them the dignity of proper treatment and care and instead enriched themselves and became cowards for not standing up to the then president. You may have got away here but remember that Day will come when you will face your Creator and your fellow human beings who you disdainly discarded and answer for your deeds. I really wonder how you will get out of this one!
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| Posted by Skipper at 2009-11-20 09:27:28 | No! He was guided by his health "expert"!
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| Posted by hadji suleiman sami Pillay at 2009-11-20 09:24:31 | Yes indeed and include his henchwoman Manto as well.
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| Posted by ILoveSA at 2009-11-20 09:23:06 | Why not ask people who voted for him? This news will filter down to them while they're sitting on a pit toilet reading the Daily Sun.
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| Posted by Anonymous at 2009-11-20 09:22:44 | Its funny how the government blames everything that went wrong during the Mbeki administration on Him, but when it comes to the things He(Mbeki) did right the are quik to say "It's the ANC policy, Not the Mbeki policy". I think if Mbeki is to be charged with Genocide, it should not be just him alone, its should also be people who are setting the policies as well.
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| Posted by Elaine at 2009-11-20 09:17:19 | No he shouldn't, Manto the crazy woman however, now thats a different story!!!! Beetroot potato et al......Bwaaaaaahahahahahaha
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| Posted by msenti at 2009-11-20 09:15:26 | Posted by I take full responsibility for my status at 2009-11-20 08:26:55, I am touched by your confidence and attitude towards life. I pray that you and every one affected are filled with heavenly strenght, courage and wisdome. For the Lord is our savior and through him all that is impossible can easily be made possible.
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| Posted by MML at 2009-11-20 09:14:28 | AWWW am at 2009-11-20 08:53:24 right, ignorance is a BLESSING for some... shamies http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/h/hiv_aids/contagious.htm
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| Posted by ftk's at 2009-11-20 09:13:26 | Then Zuma too should be charged aswell for misleading people that a shower can prevent aids. Let Mbeki off for this one because Zuma was let off for 700+ charges of corruption when and I don't care what anybody says he is gulity!!!
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| Posted by Gary at 2009-11-20 09:04:32 | Excuse me the ANC supported his policies for ten years, so if he is cahrged with genocide over his AIDS plicies then so should the ANC and all who voted ANC in 1999 and 2004.
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| Posted by MML at 2009-11-20 09:04:28 | To whom it may concern: look up the definition of contagious.
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| Posted by Dukie743 at 2009-11-20 09:01:41 | Petula T.- Zuma was the deputy president for the first half of Mbeki's presidency. He was NOT persecuted ' to prevent him becoming president of this country'. The whole world watched as he 'successfully' avoided proving his innocence in a legitimate court of South Africa, after Mpshe and the NPA maintained that it had a strong winnable case of 783 allegations of corruption against him. The latter to this day they have not withdrawn the statement of a winnable case even though Zuma is now a president. The accusation against Zuma will not go away until Mpshe declares that the NPA had no case.
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| Posted by Avner Eliyahu Romm at 2009-11-20 08:55:30 | No one is guilty for other people's AIDS any more then those who fail to use condoms-even though it is not a problem to get those condoms-and get AIDS and pass this disese to others. Should they be charged with genocide? If so, then maybe there is logic to consider charging Mbeki with this, though in my opinion I think he is innocent.
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| Posted by Jenny at 2009-11-20 08:53:27 | Matt B at 2009-11-20 08:25:22 You say it is not contagious, well my brother go and sleep with someone who has Aids, and when you are told you have it, come and tell us again it is not contagious. I suppose you will tell your kids the same. So tell me if you have AIDS and you have a cut and your child has a sore and the blood falls on the sore, will he be ok? I think you need a lesson on what is contagious and what is not.
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| Posted by am at 2009-11-20 08:53:24 | @ MML. Matt B is correct. HIV/AIDS is NOT contagious. Being in the same room or standing next to someone who is HIV+, will not give you HIV. In your case, ignorance is bliss I guess.
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| Posted by kenny at 2009-11-20 08:52:16 | colin @08:26 why must you call someone a moron and a religios zealot for saying a man should lie with a woman and not a man?? He is right in what he says, so is everyone who does not think like you a religious zealot?
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| Posted by neil at 2009-11-20 08:51:59 | It's a ridiculous notion...another headline grabbing bit of nonsense!
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| Posted by Chronology of AIDS at 2009-11-20 08:51:07 | @Matt B
I hold no candle for Malema and the ANCYL, but while they are both idiotic, there is a difference between YCL and the ANCYL
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| Posted by Jenny at 2009-11-20 08:48:51 | People please a Head of State has people that inform him of what is happening in the country. And if one of the members of Parlement in charge of our Health tells him that Beetroot etc can cure AIDS he will listen to them.
He is partly to blame as he should have gone to the hospitals and listened to the doctors, but he never did. But to be blamed for Genocide NO. Hopefully Zuma will stop saying a shower will clean you, and will also go to hospitals to see how our people are dying and that he does something positive.
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| Posted by EE at 2009-11-20 08:45:21 | i dont think it is fair to try TM for genocide. IF this is the case then JZ should be tried for mass genocide, rape and robbery....
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| Posted by Chronology of AIDS at 2009-11-20 08:44:09 | PW Botha was president when AIDS was initially identified as the disease that was killing so many in the US and elsewhere. FW De Klerk took over and still ads for condoms were banned on TV and radio. Mandela took over and we stapled condoms to prevent AIDS, and yet we are to believe that President Mbeki is singularly responsible for a pandemic that started in the 70s and was eventually diagnosed in the 80s?
Should we charge President Mbeki will genocide for Global Warming too? Maybe he caused all the earthquakes, the wars and all other ills of this world?
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| Posted by MML at 2009-11-20 08:35:04 | OH MY GOSH! Matt B at 2009-11-20 08:25:22 "The reality is HIV/ Aids isnt contagious"???????? NO COMMENT ON THIS! Leave Thabo Mbeki alone, he didnt make such a statement, thank God, he only was then ignorant. To still be ignorant today is a crime!
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| Posted by Ursula at 2009-11-20 08:27:40 | To all the people who are passing the blame: This government cannot be held responsible for anything if you have not noticed. They can't even run the country, now you want one man to have solved the AIDS crisis! Why don't we sue every social worker and educator also as clearly they aren't doing their bit to educate. Why don't we sue every nurse and doctor who prey on the weak as a result of strike..why not indeed! Mbeki is one man, we are a nation. Sadly one which wants to find a scapegoat and pass responsiblilty everytime there is a problem. Buti Manamela, you must be bored, so here is some good advice: focus on the solution, not the problem! Trying Mbeki will achieve NOTHING!
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| Posted by I take full responsibility for my status at 2009-11-20 08:26:55 | I am HIV positive and pay each month upwards of R700 for my meds. I understand not everyone can afford those, but ever wonder how many people pay on booze, cigarettes, etc? If your health is important to you, then take responsibility. I may die tomorrow, but I refuse to blame anyone for that moment of passion and stupidity that is entirely my responsibility.
There is no day I do not regret my mistake, but it is my mistake and am paying for it. I can afford good doctors, but most importantly, I follow my meds to the letter of my doctor's instructions (I have missed a few days because I was traveling). My partner knows I have the disease and we both take meds and are back from the brink and the disease is almost undetectable from our bodies. I have always wanted a child, but it is clear now that this would be unfair. I have not told anyone other than my partner and we both go to the same doctor and we have no secrets from each other and we help remind each other to take the meds. Side effects are not great, but we manage
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| Posted by Colin at 2009-11-20 08:26:44 | Oh for goodness sakes, charge the man with idiocy if you want, but individuals are responsible for their own actions! He may have been irresponsible in the public stance he took, but hell, he didnt force anyone to go out and have unprotected sex! For a change maybe South Africans should accept repsonsibility for their own actions instead of trying to blame everyone and everything else for what they do...
And as for the moron who passed the comment re: Man should lie with Woman and not man... Get a brain! This is not a forum for you to spout like a religious zealot!
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| Posted by Matt B at 2009-11-20 08:25:22 | This is typical of the ANCYL - if they looked up the definition of genocide they would see that Thabo couldnt be charged.
The reality is HIV/ Aids isnt contagious, it is as a result of an action and Thabo had no responsibility for those actions, but yet they want to blame him for the result......
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| Posted by Themba at 2009-11-20 08:16:55 | This is a stupid question. Mbeki did not give anyone HIV, they got it through their actions. His own views on the issue did not prevent the government policy on the matter. Furthermore, Mandela, De Klerk and PW Botha would have to face the same consequences since their governments not only prevented the public advertisement of condoms, but denied that AIDS/HIV was a problem in the country. Why do we take away responsibility from the people who actually had unprotected sex? People did not simply get HIV by breathing oxygen or drinking water. they engaged in a private activity which resulted them in getting AIDS. Even today, how many people are aware they have HIV/AIDS? Many walk around without ever being tested. Even now that drugs are free, how many people actually use them?
Also, how many believed Zuma's testimony about how to prevent infection?
@Zander
Did President Mbeki force people to have unprotected sex?
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| Posted by Gatvol at 2009-11-20 08:15:45 | Posted by Tyrik at 2009-11-20 07:53:09 ***** Are you blaming HIV Aids on the Gay/Lesbian community ?
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| Posted by Someones@fault at 2009-11-20 08:15:06 | Yes we are all responsible for our own actions, yes if we contract HIV/AIDS we have no one else to blame. But surely our government put procedures in place to assist in the prevention and saving of lives??? And to the best of my knowledge the corruption in our government seems to think they didn't have to live up to their promises. They set HUGE irresponsible examples. Someone must be held responsible!!!!
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| Posted by Anonymous at 2009-11-20 08:10:41 | why now dig up old cows? you should have done something about it when he was in power. it's too latet now. it's like charging a 96 year old germannow for WWII crimes. IT'S TOO LATE!!
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| Posted by muzi at 2009-11-20 08:09:53 | Should we charge Mbeki for being ignorant?
Yeh right am sure he was there in your bedroom advocating your sexual practises...you guys are nuts!
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| Posted by Luzipo at 2009-11-20 08:09:51 | I wonder why we even have to entertain such a stupid proposal. The boy has deep hatred for President Mbeki. We have so many pressing issues at hand to deal with, issues that affect the youth. Did President Mbeki spread aids by sleeping with an HIV positive woman without a condom and then sleeping with many women and wives after that?
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| Posted by matome at 2009-11-20 08:06:24 | HIV/AIDS.IS A NATIONAL issue and is not Mr mbekis blander that we have it.
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| Posted by Palesa at 2009-11-20 08:05:40 | HIV/Aids have been around since the 80?s. We live in a society where teachers impregnate school kids, politicians, educated adults etc sleep around with multiple partners including young people who are quite happy to sell their souls for material luxury, how is these Mbeki?s entire fault?
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| Posted by Palesa at 2009-11-20 08:04:28 | HIV/Aids have been around since the 80?s. We live in a society where teachers impregnate school kids, politicians, educated adults etc sleep around with multiple partners including young people who are quite happy to sell their souls for material luxury, how is these Mbeki?s entire fault?
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| Posted by Peter T at 2009-11-20 08:02:51 | Once again, I dont agree with his view of that we should treat people based on affiliation "We must never surrender our leaders," because this sentiment might change if Mbeki decide to back COPE openly. I say therefore lets defend a principle not individuals. Zuma was persecuted to prevent him from becoming the President of this country, that failed (though GodZille still has her hopes) so have we not learned anything from that chapter? Why open can of worms that will only serve to destroy the image of our country and unjust? What would then happen to all Presidents coming after Mbeki, J.G.Z included? Are they not going to fear making decisions incase they end up being prosecuted? Are we not promoting DICTATORSHIP, which is simply why the Mugabes of this world are still holding on to power? Is Zuma, Mthethwa, Mbalula and Cele not going to be charged with GENOCIDE when they leave Office for Shoot-to-Kill policy? More so for innocent lives lost in the process. Grow up Buti Manamela and dont try and complete with JuJu for Newsmaker of the year, that's stupid.....
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| Posted by Tyrik at 2009-11-20 07:53:09 | HIV aids is not the fault of Mbeki. People want to fool around, sleep with more than one partner, be unfaithful, that's the price you pay by Gods law. God designed man to be with one women, and not with a man. It couldn't be more simple. Most of the blame lies with the individuals themselves. As for those who contracted the disease, like blood transfusion, or a mess up with the hospitals, it is indeed unfortunately, and they should use the full might of the law to deal with the incompetence of those responsible in those institutions.
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| Posted by AMF at 2009-11-20 07:49:29 | AMF@07:28:23 OOOPS!! slip of the finger should have been '2011 it will be 48 ' not 480 !!!
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| Posted by FRANK HARTRY at 2009-11-20 07:47:19 | Someone should take responsibility for the previous AIDS policy of the ANC government but why only Mbeki and Msimang? Wasn't Mandela also the president of the country when the previous AIDS policy was in place? Was Zuma not a deputy president when Mbeki was the president? I thought the ANC and their political allies are historically supposed to take collective responsibility for their decisions and crimes? It would appear that every five years when the ANC inevitably wins the election and forms a government, it merely blames the previous regime for any mistakes even though that regime was an ANC government.
The ANC has been in power for nearly 16 years and therefore it is the ANC as a whole, that should be taking responsibility for the AIDS policy. Plus the corruption, the greed of its ministers and the wholesale looting of the state coffers by convicted ANC fraudsters, who are still serving in all levels of government. The ANC, SACP, ANCYL, and the SACP youth league should stop being a bunch of absolute cowards and take the full collective responsibility for the AIDS epidemic. The only ANC ally that has any courage is COSATU.
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| Posted by Morgan at 2009-11-20 07:44:08 | Mbeki and the so called health minister at the time should both be charged. They chose to ignore the problem of hiv/aids. Innocent childrens lives could of been saved but they chose to spend the money else where. Typical!!!!
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| Posted by Dolly at 2009-11-20 07:43:07 | Book a place for Thabo and Manto at Den Haag. They have deprived our HIV people of their rights. Beetroot does not work.
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| Posted by Elizabeth at 2009-11-20 07:43:00 | Fiction writers would have a great time with the wealth of material & characters in this country. Mbeki also had a very loony Minister of 'health' who also abused her body. Such an amoral society in which we live ... rape, murder, hijack, robbery are all part of everyday life. Don't blame Mbeki ... the government could probably never have been able to afford to cope with the explosion of the AIDS problems, and perhaps we should ban sex , much like smokers are treated as pariahs.
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| Posted by Zwai at 2009-11-20 07:43:00 | Why charge him when people were enganging in unsafe sexual acts.
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| Posted by jonathan at 2009-11-20 07:35:36 | well then charge zuma for having sex with an hiv party and then say, eish but i took a shower...... he also denied it but he came to his senses a lot sooner than mbekie
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| Posted by SHREK at 2009-11-20 07:30:28 | Leave the guy alone! What is the use in any case, millions in tax payers rands (OURS) will be spent prosecuting but in the end nothing will happen! Save yourselves the time, money and overseas redicule! ......... just leave it!
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| Posted by AMF at 2009-11-20 07:28:23 | He was President of SA and showing the World how ignorant he was by saying HIV did not lead to AIDS and then you had Dr Beetroots recipe for garlic, beetroot and some other vegetable assortment cure. Now these were 'supposed' ?? to be educated folk giving advice to the Citzens. Oh! and don't let us forget the idiots out there who think it is never going to happen to them and don't use protection. Yesterday on the radio they said the average life expectancy age in South Africa is 50 and by 2011 it will be 480 all because of HIV / AIDS. Get back to morality
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| Posted by Bigfoot at 2009-11-20 07:28:04 | Why should he be charged? We are all responsible for our own lives when it comes down to sexual behavior.
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| Posted by mumia at 2009-11-20 07:23:26 | YCL's a bunch of lunatics. Should we charge JZ with perpetuating rape and genocide for having sex with a HIV+ person too?
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| Posted by sonny at 2009-11-20 07:21:58 | How can anyone blame pres.Mbeki if, because of their promiscuity, they catch a disease? You must take responsibility for your actions and not always blame it on someone else if things do not go your way.Some people still need a lot of growing up. Keep your pants on!
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| Posted by SheilaM at 2009-11-20 07:21:56 | Shall we also charge him for forcing people into having unprotected sex? This is whole lot BS and am tired of people not taking ownership of their own mistakes.... stop pointing fingers at everything that goes wrong in our lives. HIV has been around since the 80's but ignorance is what is making the number incline instead of declining. Leave the man alone!!
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| Posted by Duchess at 2009-11-20 07:16:35 | If people want to have unprotected sex with multiple partners, they alone should be held responsible
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| Posted by Karen at 2009-11-20 07:15:44 | Manto Tshabalala should be charged directly. She killed more people than apartheid ever did!!!
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| Posted by kevin owen at 2009-11-20 07:12:51 | Please proceed with the charges but do not forget that Manto babelaas/beetroot/garlic Msimang must be charged as well
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| Posted by Fair-is-Fair at 2009-11-20 07:04:38 | Erhm and what about Manto ?????
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| Posted by Anonymous at 2009-11-20 07:00:07 | South African's loves to blame others for their problems and woes instead of looking at themselves. The simple answer is "Stop having sex with more than one partner and protect yourself". It is actually very simple. I am fed up of all of you.
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| Posted by richard at 2009-11-20 06:51:11 | Mr "Silent Diplomacy" must now answer to his own people. He was also responsible for allowing thousands of his Zim brothers to pour across the border into SA..........look at the mess that has created as well, VIVA AFRICA !!
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| Posted by John Woods at 2009-11-20 06:45:01 | Why single out Thabo Mbeki ? What about the former health minister who presided over a failed health care system. In almost every area of government with the possible exception of tax collection the ministers have failed the people. They are fortunate to have had clever Trevor who made sure that he collected enough tax revenue that enabled them to live high off the hog! on the gravy train.
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| Posted by NPC at 2009-11-20 06:31:07 | Charge him without delay, I said so when he was still president on this poll and not only for allowing so many people to die from AIDS but his support of the genociode in Zimbabwe and his failure to take the necessary action against mugabe instead of 100% supporting his murdering actions. 2 counts please and put him away for life..but why him first...Mugabe should have been there ages ago...anyway start with mbeki the incompetent, and soon malema will be following the next savage with a pea brain and an IQ of 5..dangerous cocktail for the future..and then of course manto must also be on the list for murdering hundreds , but instead she jumps the queue for a new liver replacement. the law of the jungle ..the more you kill, the more you steal, the more you destroy...the more you get protected by your equally guilty neighbour. ICC must start proceedings without delay. africa needs a harsh example to the nest incompetent thinks twice before lifting a finger [ Edited by IOL ]
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| Posted by Anonymous at 2009-11-20 05:04:07 | That's like asking if the people who contracted AIDS should be charged with stupidity for sleeping with multiple partners. People are responsible for their own actions. Mr Mbeki can't be held responsible if people are thick.
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| Posted by fed up at 2009-11-20 05:00:15 | whatever, i see the commies have nothing to say about thabo inviting all the savage criminals into our country to make our streets and homes unsafe, young commie league that just like there grown up anc love money too much and just love being in the papers, get lost man, not my business if you cant keep it zipped up.
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| Posted by JABULANI at 2009-11-20 02:26:50 | Perhaps Thabo should put his 'in denial' label to rest by having an HIV test. I do hope he passes it. Then he can stand trial and not use the excuse that he was under any personal stress for ignoring the plight of HIV and AIDS sufferers.
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| Posted by Zander at 2009-11-20 00:19:48 | Yes , anybody who kill 1 person get a life sentence---LET ALONE MORE THEN 300 000. LOCK him away forever!!!!!!! Its called genocide! SIES man !!!!!paeth
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