Penuell Maduna, the minister of minerals and energy in former president Nelson Mandela's cabinet, and later justice minister under President Thabo Mbeki, quit politics for business three years ago.
Maduna, a director of law firm Bowman Gilfillan, now leads consortiums that hold 26 percent of Barplats, 26 percent of Eland Platinum, 14.2 percent of property group Growthpoint and 25 percent of petrochemicals group Sasol. He also owns what he describes as a "small percentage" of Nedbank.
In the past, you've been a bit cagey about your portfolio, apparently because of competitive concerns. Is that the case?
No. I am basically trying to live a very quiet life and do my thing very quietly.
What strategic direction are you taking with your portfolio?
I've been basically in mining and energy, of course with the exception of Growthpoint, which is property. Together with others, I'm looking at property, especially along the coast. But if you ask me what the basic purpose is, it's to build a properly diversified portfolio of investments.
Can you disclose the other sectors you're likely to move into?
No, because once I do that the people who are working with me may not like it. They might say: 'But why are you letting the small cat out of the big bag?'
How did you come to be involved with Sasol?
I went to work for Sasol as a senior adviser on a host of strategic matters. Transformation, broad-based black economic empowerment and things like that also landed on my lap.
Eventually, I was asked whether I was not keen on taking a stake myself in some of these things - you can't sit cooking in the kitchen and never taste the food, you know. So I said yes, and the people I was working with thought I should take the leadership position rather than just say I'm interested in this. It changed the situation somewhat, but we were all not uncomfortable about it.
How did the relationship emerge with Sasol in the first place? Did they approach you?
Once, in 2003, I think around October, it became - much against my will - public knowledge that I was not going to return to public office, a number of institutions started speaking to me - academic institutions, law firms, consultancies and others. I won't mention names. We had discussions and, eventually, of course, I decided that Sasol and my law firm Bowman Gilfillan were giving me the best offers.
Did you bring any of your own cash to the Sasol equity deal?
I didn't have a cent. I mean, having been in exile for a long period, and having been in government for 10 years, and before then having been running around at Luthuli House, I could not have had any equity that I could put down. I owe the banks The banks have been very helpful and understanding.
Do you mind if I ask what you owe?
It's quite substantial. Again I do not want to mention a figure because it starts a whole lot of speculation. But the figure is in fact in excess of half a billion .
Is that your personal loan?
That's it. When you put all these together, that's where it starts at right now.
What do you think of the competition tribunal's decision to block the Uhambo deal ?
Well, it's not for me to criticise institutions appropriately constituted. I accept, particularly as a professional lawyer, that at times you would not get the sorts of rulings or judgments that you think you're entitled to We said rather than fight in the competition appeal court without any certainty as to whether or not we would get a different ruling, let's just accept that this has happened and move on. That was our attitude.
During those tribunal hearings, you were alleged to have used your position as former minerals and energy minister to influence
No, that was hogwash. That was really nonsense. They were looking at a formal letter I wrote pointing out the shortcomings that everyone accepted. In fact, what was the admission, which was much more sinister and much more serious, that some law firm and some company actually provided their own perspective to the government.
That company was BP?
Well, I am not going to mention names. It all came out in the wash eventually. I don't think by officially writing a letter such as I did, which became public knowledge, I committed any cardinal sin.
So you didn't meet with the then minerals and energy minister, Phumzile Mlambo-Ngcuka?
No, not at all. In fact, all people have easy access to government and talk to government about things. Why should I be an exception? Look, I can't suddenly disappear or pretend I no longer hold views. And I do think that the atmosphere we have, which allows us space to air our views, is great for our democracy, as long as we do not improperly influence people - although there was never any suggestion that I had actually gone beyond the bounds of what is normal.
You've been criticised by the Democratic Alliance (DA) and members of your party for different reasons, both relating to leaving politics for business.
The DA says your involvement in business will entrench the link between ANC elites and business, while ANC MP Ben Turok is worried about the loss of talent to the private sector. What do you think of their comments?
The general answer to both of them is I don't think it's proper for anybody to say that people must never undergo change in their lives. We are a democracy, I make decisions, and I made a decision to go. Secondly, I don't know whether there is loss of talent when people leave. I want to believe that, on the contrary, it opens space for people who otherwise were wondering when there would be space for them to be appointed.
And the DA's comment about ANC elites and business?
Look, I don't think I constitute a link between the ANC and business What seems to be their position is that members or leaders of the ANC should never have anything to do with business. And I can tell you that's nonsense.
Should there be a mandatory period of leave before government officials take up posts in the private sector?
The difficulty with that is nobody says 'what do you live on'. Nobody would accept that, even if you have the professional qualifications I do. What are you going to do? What do you live on?
Look, in a very utopian world, that would be right I would never have been happy to be paid for a certain privilege with ordinary people's salaries, some of whom don't even have houses, should be paying for a former minister to be maintained without him or her doing anything.
By all accounts, you were no friend of deceased mining magnate Brett Kebble. He allegedly accused you and former Scorpions boss Bulelani Ngcuka, now one of your business partners, of persecuting him. Was there any substance to his allegations?
Look, I don't want to respond to the dead, please. May his soul rest in peace. That's all.
Do you still wish you were involved in government?
I'm happy with what I'm doing . I leave government to people best capable of handling it and we have some of the finest doing exactly that.
What is your involvement in the ANC these days?
I'm still on the national executive committee as well as on the national working committee of the ANC, duly elected.
Would you ever consider returning to government?
I think people would have to be persuaded that they need me and nobody has ever spoken to me about that. They accept I'm gone and hopefully they are not saying 'good riddance'. I've never heard any one of them saying 'thanks for going'.